Tuesday, May 4, 2010

Blast from the past! The original warhammer beta feedback!

Keep in mind, much of what is posted here is no longer relevant in the current games design. But i figured.. i might aswell have an archive of all my feedback somewhere.. so here it is!

What defines your Character as yours. What allows you to feel a certain attachment to your in-game persona. Is it the name? is it the facial expressions you pick and choose that define you as you. That separate you for the rest of the masses. What is it about Ultima Online, Everquest, World of Warcraft, Dark age of Camelot, that defined each player so well, that we have forever gained an attachment, and love for the characters we’ve created in those virtual worlds?

The answer is somewhat simple, but getting to that answer from our current state is the challenge.

Class/Character Development, The abilty to pick and choose the way we want to play our class. Caster DPS, Ranged DPS, Melee DPS, Tank, or Support. To play a role in my class and play it as it should be played. To feel as if I should lean more towards increasing my Heals instead of my Damage output, to increase my melee Damage at the sacarfice of my defencive needs. We don’t want to be told how to play our class, we don’t want to have our options taken away.

With that said, I have created a Huge spec tree(small version) which I think we should drive towards for our goal of a more indepth class development system, which would allow the playerbase to connect to there character.

I based my template/general idea off of the Tank Class, breaking it up into 3 spec tree lines. Each of the spec lines would be geared strongly towards a set play style. The deeper within that spec line the player places his leveling points into, the more enhanced that player will be within that spec.

Lets just get right into it. (yes this is scaled very very small, and hopfuly mythic will work out the bugs). Everytime you level, you get 1 spec point, which you can place in any Abilty slot linked to your “CLASS start” slot. Also, you can only spec into linked slots.

That will be how you aquire your skills/tactics/moral/stat enhancements(on top of the normal ones you get per level based on class). That will also be how you define your character, weather you’re a tank that wants to focus on attacking like a mad man, and having most of your styles based off your weapon. OR if you want to have most of your styles based of your defencive shield abilities. Or if you want your class to be a heavy support tank, with abilities that favor the group as a whole, aswell as abilities that debuff your targets, making them weaker towards certain types of attacks. If this was a Healer Caster class, the spec lines would promote stronger and different types of heals, hots, AOE heals, etc etc.

Lets dive into [b]Advance Specs..[/b]

[b]Style Attack spec:[/b]
There are 4 tiers to every tactic, and style. Each point you put into a style, unlocks the combo chain style within that set style.. Each level style attack within that SET style would have the same AP cost values, but each attack would have a different affect, being it a tuant, or a snare, or a bleed, or a debuff, or just an overall damage increase.

The styles would all be paired into the same button, If the first attack is successful, the next time you hit that attack style, it will automatically attack with the style L2, then L3, and finally L4 (if each attack was not blocked/parried/dodged). Also each style would have it’s own animation that flows from the next to the next to feel as if it’s one type of attack teir.

[b]Tactic Spec:[/b] (either all tactics are passive and constantly attive when speced, or 4 sloted)
Each tactic also has 4 levels, each level of a tactic is +5% increase of set enhanment. Maxing out at 20% total. So if your tactic is.. increase chance to block, and you pump 3 points into it.. you now have a 15% chance to block. These tactics would also be based on the spec line they are located in.

TACTIC: Great Weapon Damage
T-level 1- +5% damage
T-level 2- +5%damage(making it a total of 10%)
T-level 3- +5%damage(making it a total of 15%)
T-level 4- +5%damage(making it a total of 20%) and also MAx level spec within Great weapons.

[quote]more indepth view on tactics (based off a level 10 4 tactic slot system)
TANK 1 buys with his 4 points
-Shield spike1
-HoT in combat 1
-Toughness 1
-Bleed 1

Tank 2 Buys with his 4 points
-Blocking 2
-Bleed 2
-empty slot
-empty slot

Tank 3 buys with his 4 points
-Great Weapons 4
-empty slot
-empty slot
-empty slot

now we have 3 same TANK classes, that are indeed VERY different. Each one used their tactic points to either focus them into 1 line.. or spread them out into multi lines/adjustmet(minor) to their character.

TANK1: would have alot more options going on in terms of what he is doing.. but isn't AS effective in them. still effective, but just not magorly specing into any 1 skill.. and thus has 4 tactis at his disposile

Tank2: went a lil more defenives with a lil more offecive, improveing him blocking to level 2(10%) and improve his bleed(higher DOT damage) so he is still just as affective as the TANK 1.. but in a very different way

TANK3: was like "screw shields" and went total great weapon DPS, and only has his 1 tactic(3 empty slots) but his 1 tactic is level 4.. doing a whopping 20% damage increase with great weapons.[/quote]

[b]Morale Abilty:[/b]
Morale System gets changed totally around. Each morale abilty has a value of 25%,50%, 75%, and 100%. Which is the output the moral abilty gains when put into the set slot.
So if you have a “HEAL” moral abilty, if placed into the 100% slot.. it will heal for 100%.. if placed in the 25% slot.. it will only heal for 25%. This allows the player to have much more freedom in how they want to use what set abilty and where. These moral abilities would be based on the spec line they are located in.

morale should be gained when a player actually does an action.

each abilty, attack, block, dodge, evade, heal, magic spell, would have different values. (i don't think moral should still be gained for a tank "taking damage as his job".. his job is to block, not get hit in the face.

so if the moral bar was 100 points(%).. each attack(skill and such) would have a set value depending on what it is. Support classes would have a higher value point given for a heal then an attack. so it could be something as small as 2 points for an attack, 5 points for a heal.

Morale goes up. you get access to your morale abilties. When you use a morable abilty, you loose morale points depending on the cost of the abilty.
What i would like to see with the morale system.. is do away with these instant mega cast moves.

What should happen is each moral has a 3 second cast time.. during the time a player presses the morale abilty (on top of all the other changes i have suggested), the player has a bubble of immunty, pretty lights glow and such, and the player cast his spell, which has a clear showing that a mega spell is being cast.

For melee abilties.. it should look like a melee abilty.. the player goes into a trance for 3 seconds.. and then performs his "MEGA" attack. it just shouldn't be what we currentl see "a simple wave of damage from Raze" but the warrior actually grapples the target(keeping them in place) and proceeds to violently do his high morale attacks.. (which look like Omnislash from FF7, or any of those attacks from FF7).

That would add some much needed flair to the morale system (yes still on top of all my other changes with morale not being such a constantly used abilty.. but something that is very much earned)

[b]Stat Enhancement Basic:[/b]
These are boost to your stats, being it +20 wounds, or +500 hitpoints(advance stats) or +100 tough(expert stats).. these enhancements would also be based on the set style they are located in.

[b] Sweet Linked Abilty:[/b]
This is the jont cross-over location between 2 spec lines. Where 2 lines meet to perform some sort of beautfil magic. Where if a player specs equally in 2 set specs, and works his way up to where these are located, having a perfect balance in his character, he gets blessed with a sweet abilty, that is a mixture of both spec lines, being it a awesome moral abilty, or state enhancement, or skill to use great weapons with shield etc etc.

You will also find these types of abilty unlock at the very end of a spec line, to award the player for totally dedecating himself towards his set play style. He would get rewarded with (examples) the abilty to use 2 great weapons at once, to block magical abilities, or a mega finishing move of somesort.. you get the basic idea. It’s the master style for the master player, being the master of his class.

[quote author=Node link=topic=7885.msg80536#msg80536 date=1188248121]
Testpig, it might help to clarify that by 100% on one side and 0% on the other (e.g., Heals), you mean 0% invested spec-wise, and not a complete inability to heal. Seems a reasonable assumption to make out of the gates, but you can be sure someone won't get it.

Based on nodes comment below.

i'm BASING the current diagrams below off of SPECING within a line. EACH CLASS would still have it's BASELINE abilties that SCALE AS YOU LEVEL. so you will at all times be able to PERFORM the CORE of your class. Being it Blocking, attacking, basic healing.. what your class is AT IT'S CORE.

but with SPECING you get to GREATLY improve those skills AND unlock NEW abilties BASED off your spec.

[b]BASE SKILLS [/b] would be: Scale as you level
-Single Target Heal
-Group Heal
-Single Target Hot
-Simple Single Target Rez
(the Basics)

[b]The Speced heals [/b] would be
-Stronger Single Target Heal
-Stronger Group Heal
-Stronger HoT
-Groupd HoT
-Leaping Heal
-Life Tap
-Aura Heal
-Full single Target Rez
-PBAE instant Rez

Spec Line Balance. Showing how SPEC development should improve the spec line. Pumping more points into 1 spec line over another should make the spec line better. in the current system.. all the spec lines are ALL 100% powerful.

More detailed scale system of how a tri-spec class would work with it's spec tri option.
Giving the option to develope 3 set lines a certain way. (i based the scale off of a 200%, but of course it should be much less.. so that a player cannot spec 100% into 2 lines at all.., but for diagram purposes it makes it easier to understand )

Class Balance. The basic idea of paper rock scissors. Meaning something is always able to beat something else, no one is ever king of the mountain, top of the foodchain. Everyone has a counter balance.

Here I will list out each Class type, and list a counter balance for it, and reason why. Also abilities that are needed in the game to bring more balance to somethings to fuction better.

[b]CASTER DPS:[/b] What is strong and weak vrs casters.
-Tanks Shield (can’t block magic)
-Tanks Great weapons (can’t block magic)
-Caster DPS: (can’t block magic, but also the counter to Casters DPS)
-Projectile DPS (can’t block magic, but also the counter to Casters DPS)
-Melee DPS (can’t block magic, but also the counter to Caster DPS) This class needs a ‘baseline’ charge type abilty that allows it to be immued to magical snares/damage for a set prd of time, aswell as have a movement increase to close the gap towards the casters.

[b]PROJECTILE DPS:[/b] What is strong and weak vrs casters.
-Tanks Great weapon (not shield, so can’t block the projectiles)
-Tanks Shield(Very strong vrs Projectile DPS, can block 75% of all the attacks aslong as he is arc/facing the target)
-Caster DPS(can’t block projectiles, but also the counter to projectile DPS)
-Projectile DPS (can’t block projectiles, but also the counter to projectile DPS)
-Melee DPS (can’t block projectiles)

[b]Melee DPS: [/b]What is strong and weak vrs casters, (requires Charge type abilty)
-Tanks Great weapon: no shield to counter the double weapons of melee DPS
-Tanks SHIELD: very weak towards them, can’t get past the defence
-Caster DPS: immunity towards magic with charge
-Projectile DPS: Can cut them appear if the gap is closed. Projectile Snares ignore charges magical immunity
-Melee DPS: slaughter each other

[b]Tanks SHIELD:[/b] baseline Instant throw Weapon that snares when hits target in the back/side
-Tanks Great weapon: Really hurt Shield Tanks
-Tanks SHIELD: cancel each other out (longiest battle in the history of all battles)
-Caster DPS: kills tanks.
-Projectile DPS: Tanks can basiclly ignore their damage, and crawl to them to engaged

[b]Tanks Great Weapon: [/b]Baseline instant throw weapon that snares when hits target in the back/side
-Tanks Shield: very weak towards great weapon
-Tanks Great weap: slaughter each other
-Melee DPS: hurt great weapon tanks
-Caster DPS: kills great weap tanks
-Projectile DPS: kills great weap tanks.

Simple abilities that need to be added are instant throw weapon snare, and charge immunity.
Follow link Below for: [b]RvR[/b] focusing on RvR and group dynamics
in the RvR post, i will dive into CD, Group dynmaics, Goal based RvR..

[b]Public Quest thread is here, focusing on RvR PQ's, MOBS, BOSS's[/b]

For Starters I’ll open by my stating, I LOVE Realm vrs Realm combat, the 1v1 PvP aspect doesn’t really gear towards me, it’s still has strong value in the big picture, but I’m strongly geared towards Team Work to complete a given task/goal.

Also I’d like to state, that I’m more in favor of Open Field Skirmishes, battling over objectives then scenarios matches(I seem them as having a place, but I don’t feel they should be the most important factor in WAR’s Realm vrs Realms features).

Lets take a view at the types of Realm vrs Realm War offers, and Break them down in how they might be improved.

[b]Skirmishes:[/b] Incidental PvP combat
[b]Battlefields:[/b] Objective-based battles in the game world
[b]Scenarios:[/b] Instanced, point-based Battles Balanced with NPC dogs of war
[b]Campaigns:[/b] The invasions of enemy lands culminating in assault on their capital city.

Looks like a strong solid list of 4 epic RvR options in war. Well it’s really just 2. Battlesfields and Scenarios.

[b]I like Battlefields,[/b] so I’ll dive into that first.

[b]BATTLEFIELDS:[/b] The open world of RVR combat/zones. Battling over Objectives that have value other then RP farming. Based on the Tier zone level, will determine how complex the RvR zone is, aswell as location and number of objectives needed to “control” the area.

Objectives Could be things as simple as a Farm, or a Mine. But whats the point of such objectives? What does the realm gain? What does the player gain? Currently. Not much. Objectives Should offer 1 way quest, that give a coin/exp/or renown reward when completed. (accept quest by looting chest, bring items in chest back to warcamp, get rewarded). Very simple, but enough to feel a reason to capture such objective. The quest should also be repeatable for aslong as the realm controls such objective(diminishing returns of course, or reward can be a random, of xp, or, coin, or renown, or item) so you never know exactly what you will get.

On top of the direct reward the player gets, the REALM itself should be rewarded aswell. If not for the sub-objective, then atleast for the MAIN objective(which would be the center keep/tower). That tower control would give all TIER 1 players a global enhancement, be it 5% more XP, or 5% more coin drop, but something that helps the realm overall.

Now that we got some of the basic NEEDS of rvr out of the way, lets break down RvR to make it more meaningful, and engaging instead of just gatecamping. In the above Sample Tier1 RvR image. You see a basic set up of how RvR should work. You have linked lands, that you must control before you can control the next land over. So Realm1, will need to capture and hold the objective 1, in order to advance to the center objective. But being that tier 1 is the simple learning RvR, it’s pretty straight forward. Each realm will be driving towards each other, and the focus battle will be in/around the center tower/keep.

[b]SEIGE: [/b]
Yes I love Siege, I loved the Seige concepts of DAOC, but it did restrict many players into being ram bots. So in order to solve this issue, Siege equipment is totally automated. A player would talk to an NPC in the Objective bases and order that NPC to start moving the siege weapon. Players will need to escort the Siege engine towards the keep, and it will begin taking down the doors and such autmaticlly.
The defending realm will be able to destroy the siege engine, and stop it from advancing by killing the escorting players. If the siege engine remains destoried for a set amount of time, it will vanish and respawn back at the basic objective base.

Players can repair the siege engine by just clicking on it for about 30 seconds or so, to get it moving again. Capture the tower, by placing the flag on the tower unintruped for 60 seconds. (Think the FPS enemy Terrirtory, where you would have a moving objective as the focus of an early stage in the match to let you get into the enemies base)

(respawn points are outside the combat circle/not within the tower/keeps/objectives)

[b]View Tier 2 Battle Field[/b]
This gives you a more indepth idea of how advancing in Tier advances the complex RvR battlefield. Same idea of tier 1 RvR, but more objectives to fight over, and more Keeps to hold. Even a center path that connects the keeps to have another form of engagment.

You can possibly also get a feel for the type of linked battle from Tier 2. (think Risk, the game of world domination). Attacking linked lands. Controling and holding. And trying to “cut off” the chain of land control of the other realm. With the higher tier you get more strategic options. Like cutting off the linked lands. Which will automatically start the lands which are no longer connected to the realms Warcamp to slowly start to loose control(UNLESS of course the objective has players of that given realm defending within it), thus allowing a realm to still HOLD a objective even if they are no longer linked. But once they leave the grounds of that objective, it will start to diminish.

That the basics of RvR openfield.

[b]Scenarios: Instance RvR[/b]
These are just games to me, capture the flag, 6v6 arena battles, Nothing that should really define the realm other then rewarding the players within it with renown points. It’s such a private area, that a player can’t just run in and out of, thus should not really be the overall focus of what drives the realm to victory. Perhaps someone that is a strong supporter of Scenarios can provide some content on them. I never liked them in WoW, and I don’t like them in War.

[b]Realm Vrs Realm,[/b] is Team vrs Team, Groups vrs Groups. How do we promote More teamwork, More group Dynamics, how do we promote players to accept and desire any class into their group,? RvR/PvE tend to aquire different classes for the reasoning that we all know. A PvE group would take a healer, a caster, and a bunch of Tanks/Melee DPS just to slaughter all the High level PvE mobs. And that’s great, group dynamics seem to be very balanced when it comes to PvE, almost every class can provide something to the group and feel useful.

But once we take that same dynamic and try to transfer it into the PvP(RvR) aspect of the game, it just falls apart, groups tend to funnel towards classes which will have the most possible and fastest damage output, Casters DPS, Ranged DPS, and even Melee DPS. Classes such as Tanks find themselves unwelcome. And also how these Games tend to work that Range > Melee, why would anyone take a class that they will have to constantly feed heals to? That is just a leech of action points to try to keep alive?

So with that said, I want to propose an idea to promote grouping, aswell as promote having classes that you might feel don’t really bring anything to the table when they are in the mix. I would like it if, each class once groups would have an automatic AURA effect activated(passive abilty) that improves the groups overall effectiveness in some way or another. Also if you have 2 of that set class in your group, or 3, 4, 5, or even if your entire group is all of 1 set class. Each will will a different passive enhancement to the group.

I’ll make a list based of TANKS, because well, I have a soft spot in my heart for them.
If your group has:
[b]1 TANK:[/b] you will gain +5% Toughness
[b]2 TANK:[/b] you will gain Above + 5%wounds
[b]3 TANK:[/b] you will gain Above + 5% AP regen
[b]4 TANK:[/b] you will gain Above + 5% Str
[b]5 TANK:[/b] you will gain Above + 5% damage output
[b]6 TANK:[/b] you will gain Above + Increased Heal over time while in combat

Of course each class type would offer Enhancments based off their class type, so tanks offer Tank like enhancements.

This I belieave would be a great way to promote inviting any class into your group.

Collusion Detection: Player Size, Melee Range, and basic CD.
If a players model is bigger (black orc, chosen) they should have a much large CD box, aswell as much larger range with their weapons based off the size od their CD box. CD is important to the group dynamic because CD can be used as a HUGE part of RvR aswell as PvE.

On top of that, I also feel Classes such as the Chosen, and the Blackorc (heck all TANK classes) should have a much slower timer on all their styles, but each style should have a large swinging arc and hit multi targets at once, aswell as increased damage. I don’t want the tank to be a frontloader single target class like a Melee DPS, but it should be a class that swing it’s huge weapon around, hitting anything around it. Would make Tank classes something to fear, instead of something that just bothers and nips at your knees.

Having Tanks play the roll of Tanks, blocking doorways, blocking stairwells, Standing in a line, holding back the enemy forces, as the range casters and projectile players rain hell from afar.

Below is how I feel combat should basiclly look like in overhead football type View.

Most of the melee classes are engaged in the center of the battle. Tank classes defending melee DPS class from ranged DPS, and Melee DPS. Support classes healing the Tanks. Caster DPS classes Atttacking the Tanks. Outskirt Tanks engaging Ranged DPS. Melee DPS classes attemping to “Charge” a caster, but get blocked by 2 CD TANKS. Ranged DPS classes sneaking around behind, and sniping down the support classes. You have classes focusing there attacks on classes they know are weak towards them. And to counter that, you have classes supporting those weaker classes in different ways. Being it Defending abilities, or CD, or just heals, or sniping.

In the current build, you just have any old range class destroying all the melee classes, and that’s just shouldn’t be. It’s not balanced, and demoralizes the playerbase from building Melee DPS / Tank classes.

[i]-Public Quest that benefit from the participation of the entire army.
-Conflict quest that pit players against an enemy with opposing goals.[/i]

The Public Quest, the great new concept mythic has created to tone down the feeling of “grinding” away on countless mobs to gain XP and level up in the Warhammer world. But there is just something about these public quest that don’t define them as such a stand along strong feature. Yes the idea at it’s core is great. But why stop where it is? Why not take the PQ to the next possible level? For years I have played video games, and many many times, I find myself sitting there, and thinking “they could have really done more with this”. So with PQ’s that’s where I find myself. I thank the lords of Mythic that I am in the beta so I can actually help in the process of trying to build a perfect or atleast near perfect game. That I can just waste the rest of my life on.(ha).. So with all that said. Lets get into Public Quest.

First things first, keep in mind I’m using the PQ concept as the core, and simply adding to and mixing things up abit, also, re-working some of the overall ideas of the PQ. Under the idea I’m pushing, I’m breaking PQ’s up into 4 types of Public Quest.

[b]-RvR Public Quest
-Large Scale Public Quest
-Medium Scale Public Quest
-Small Scale Public Quest[/b]

[b]•Realm Vrs Realm Public Quest: [/b]
These are Public quest that are also RvR areas, These can vary in size and scale.. but should be somewhat small, to keep the battle close and focus into 1 solid area. These PQ’s would have a strong mixture of friendly NPC’s and Enemy player targets to overcome to advance in the PQ. While these PQ’s are mostly RvR based, they really wont have a “BOSS”(boss section down below on the new boss designs). But more so an objective which gets claimed.
A good example of a RvR PQ area would be the early stage PQ in mount Bloodhorn, where the greenskins are required to kill 100 dwarfs, and the stunies are required to kill 100 Greenskins. This is already screaming to become an RvR engagment. First off (lesson the numberes overall on these PQ’s stage 1’s should not be so drastic, there should never be a requirment of killing 100 of anything, should be 25-50 at most, with that said..) So stage 1 requires to kill 50 Dwarfs(I’m coming from a greenskin point of view), and us greenskins do so, killing a mixture of NPC dwarfs, and dwarf players. Stage 2 now begins for us, which would be “Push Forward, and set the Dwarven Buildings on Fire”.. the Dwarfs will now be in stage 2 of “Defend your Buildings, put out the flames!”… Finaly Stage 3 would come around after all the buildings have been set ablaze, which would be something along the lines of “set your flag in the center of the battle, and become the king of the hill (for a set time). The dwarfs would be on stage 3 of “reclaim the center of battle, and destroy the greenskin flag”.. etc.

If however the Dwarfs then stop the greenskins flag, and destroy it, they then drop down to stage 2, which requires them to set the enemy town ablaze. And so on and so on and so on. Perfect Small scale RvR PQ’s. Of course this is just an example as to what can be.

[b]•Large Scale PQ’s & Medium Scaled PQ’s[/b]
Basiclly the same thing, just the amount of kills varies from one to the next, also the complexed objectives varry based on the overall size. And of course, the Challenge of the end [b]BOSS[/b] would varry based on size. (I’m really excited for the new boss concepts down below!)

[b]•Small Scale PQ’s[/b]
This is something I’m really hoping for. A public Quest that 1 or 2 players can complete all alone. I’m talking VERY small scale. These would be PQ’s located in each and every single Cave in the game. Or at those random points of intrest that are viewed way off into the distance. Open your imagination for a moment to see what I see in my head.

In the distance I see a the shape of a large Building towering above the tree line in. I travel the off the main road, into a land that I have no quest in, I have no real reason to go into this direction, but that tower.. that tower must have some importance to it. I arrive at the tower to discover nothing.. nothing at all but useless NPC’s. That’s how it currently is in the game. However, I have something different in mind, That tower can offer so much more. Instead of just more random NPC;s to kill for no reason othen they being in my way. Give me reason on the spot. A new SMALL scale PQ!
[b]Stage 1 [/b]“you have discovered the darken tower, Kill 5 guards patrolling the tower”
[b]Stage 2 [/b]“Destory the Towers door, watch out for Patrols!”
[b]Stage 3 [/b]“Enter the tower and kill the 4 mages which have poisoned the lands!”
[b]Stage 4[/b] “Kill the tower Lord! And remove his head!”(tower lord would be a “special” non-boss mob. You then get a nice XP reward, and can loot a few chest for cash reward from the tower itself.
It would be a quick fun rewarding lil quest, that can then open up larger quest in town after you return the head to the local “headhunter” npc.

The same idea can work for those random caves we tend to ignore because there is no reason to go into them unless for if we by chance have a quest for them.
[b]Stage 1[/b]” kill 5 spiders”
[b]Stage 2[/b]” find and kill the 5 spider eggs”
[b]Stage 3[/b]” The Queen of the spiders has return to the lair, Slay her before it’s to late!”
Etc etc. Simple, straight forwad, rewarding.

Now for what will make Medium PQ’s and Large Scale PQ’s exciting.

Lets start with a basic view of what the current Build has for Mobs/Specials/Bosses. Currently the only thing that defines these 3 types of mobs as different is the amount of hitpoints they have or the amount of damage they deal.. Nothing really defines a boss as a boss or a special mob as a special mob. Bosses act/react/feel/look exactly like normal mobs. (this is something DAOC suffered in aswell)

So lets just list adjustments to make MOBS feel more like MOBS and for players to feel more like a Hero.
-Makes mobs have A LOT less hitpoints. So that we just cut through them like butter. I should not have to use over 2000Ap , a moral ablity, and 4 full PvE focus tactics to kill 1 simple mob. I should be able to cut these simple equally level mobs apart. Heck increase the number of mobs in the area, I just want to cut them apart, to be surrounded, and hacking away, kicking some down to the ground, and crushing skulls.

-They Should be rare. Random mobs that you NEED to use your morale abilities on, that you need to really worry about, that you think to yourself “should I engage him alone?” Special mobs should perform styles, have a nice pool of hitpoints, and generally give you a run for your money. But also reward you nicely when you slay them

[b]BOSS MOBS:[/b]
This is what needs a Major overhaul. BOSS mobs are currently just stronger normal mobs with no flair. No real thought process goes into defeating it other then “ok just hit it over and over again”. We should Bring BOSS mobs back to the concept of Video games. MegaMan, Strider, Ninja Gaiden, Metroid, FF3, Metal Gear Solid, Devil May Cry, etc etc. Games that the bosses were something MORE then just attacking at it to win.. Bosses that would react based on your actions towards it. That would have “Weak Spots” and “paterns” that you memorize in order to survive.
[b]With that I introduce Basic BOSS mob1
[/b] [IMG]http://i222.photobucket.com/albums/dd52/testpig/boss1.jpg[/img]
BOSS mob 1. Your basic Melee Type boss, comes equip with highe melee damage, and high fast pace aggression. Has 2 points of intrest for targeting to attack. The weapon, and the Boss itself. You really get to pick which you want to lay waste too, but dealing damage to one will affect the other. The bosses actions will very much be in response to where his current Life is at.

[b]Boss at 75-100% life.[/b]. you have him being pretty confident.. strutting around, Attacking players normally, and having a few set “styled” attacls
-Raises axe high into the sky, holds it for a few seconds, says some words, and smashes the axe down into a marked area on the floor. These types of attacks you see coming, thus you can manually Dodge/avoid them. When his axe is pluged into the ground, you can then target the axe, to begin to attack it.. Targeting his weapon will decrease his overall damage.
[b]Boss at 50-75% life.[/b]. His a lil worried, so now he starts his next wave of attack, which he hold his axe around behind his back for a second, says some key words, and begins to spin spin spin all over the place (PBAE typpe damage), again something you can dodge manually… After this set attack the BOSS finds himself dizzy, and open attacks towards his axe and body
[b]Boss at 25-50% life[/b].. Now the boss is worried, he starts to call for help, mixing his attacks between the axe drop, and the spin.
[b]Boss at 1-25% life[/b].. the Boss is really enraged, and deeply concerned with his life… he calls for more help from NPC’s, and now has a NEW attack in his pocket, where he jumps into the air, and smashes down near all those dealing the most damage to him, stunning them, and then performing his PBAE spin attack in rage mode.. cuasing him NOT to become dizzy afterwards. Everything is all on the line at this point. His finally at 1% life, and drops his axe.. now is the time to slay the boss. You rightclick the AXE, pick it up, and swing it down on the bosses skull.. VICTORY. Boss from PQ1 is destoried.
(now you say.. what if I destoried his axe earlier?, the answer to that is, the axe would have been dropped sooner, and you would be able to lay down some major damage towards the BOSS)

I wont need to go into such details as I did with boss one, because now you have the basic idea as to how bosses should/could work. I’ll just point out examples of what else can be done. Like having a target point be the legs of the “HUGE GIANT BOSS”, which would a: slow down the movement of the giant, and B: randomly bring him down to his knees so you can laydown some harder damage with the boss being weakened.

This is what I WISH and DREAM and HOPE to dear mythic god, we do the enhance the PVE in this game. Normal Mobs are normal everyday mindless mobs. Just like the good ole Table Top games of D&D when your DM would just have you randomly encounter basic goblins walking around.. a quick kill.. But when it came to the named BOSS mob of the TT adventure.. the battle would take hours, and you would have to figure out the “key way” to get past the bosses shield by using the krystal you were found with when dropped off as a child in front of the church.

[b]PQ REWARDS[/b] (newly added)
Currently you do ALOT of work for very little reward in the big picture of PQ's and Inf. So Lets change it up a tad.
We remove the current PQ quest rewards, and stick those items into a INF Vendor. that vender using Inf to purchase Items/Weapons/Armor sets of all type and kind. each item scaling with some pretty nice inf cost.. (which will cuase the player to hang around and do more PQ's in the area.)

Now as for Inf Stage rewards.. as you go from basic/advance/expert.. the rewards will totally change from Items, to abilties/tactics/morales/stat enhancements. These tactics and skills can be simple, such as increase the ammount of INF you get per kill.. or DO EXTRA damage to bosses. etc etc. Something that might be purely a PvE Tactic.. some can even just be as on par as our standard tactic.

[size=12pt][b]What is my Careers role, And why can’t I perform at it?[/b][/size]

Mythic designed Warhammer online with 4 basic archetypes which they fit each class into. These Archetypes include [b]Tanks, Melee DPS, Range DPS, and Healers.[/b] The 4 basics to I guess almost any game when you really think about it. But why do some of these classes feel out of place? Or just not where they are supposed to be in the “big picture”. Why do some of these classes lack the luster of others. Why do some classes seem to keep going down that path, just to be replaced by another class which can do your job, and their job, better then you.

In this thread/topic/post, I’m going to attempt to find a new CORE for each archetype, to try to narrow down some basic needs which Class should be able to fill/have. I wont go into crazy details about how one ability is stronger then the next. I will try to just keep it focused on a global balance on how I think we might have a more well rounded game when it comes to the “big picture”.

(also, keep in mind, many of the ideas I’m proposing are also chained off/connected to my other posted on PQ’s/WAR/RVR.. they all relate, they all mesh. For this post tho, I will try my best to avoid going into leveling/depth system, and just focus on the core of the class.

Of course we can’t just slam the TANK into 1 archetype, being that we have 2 pretty distinct types of tanks. Shield Tanks, and Great Weapon Tanks. And with these playstyles, we should Design the Tank around each one. From morale abilities, to normal abilities, to the way they can support the group, and also the way they deal damage.

When I see a Tank in the game right now.. I see a soft target, that even in the “long” combat situation, still will remain a minor thought process in my mind. The Tank is a Gnat, a pimple on the butt of life, the tank is not a threat.

[b]What Is wrong with the Tank class? And how can we Fix it?[/b] (besides AP cost)
Right now, as it stands.. the Tank is the lowest damage dealing/lack of utility class in the game. That alone would drive players away from the class. Why must we design a game with a Weak class? Why can’t the tank just deal it’s damage differently then a Melee DPS, or Range DPS.. why must a tanks damage even be lower then a Healer(melee/range)?

My solution would be to look at Range DPS classes, and Healer classes. The healer.. even tho it’s role is to heal. Can still lay down some damage, in a different way then a Main Caster DPS. Caster DPS has HUGE long casting Damage dealing abilities. The healers, have shorter faster abilities, with less damage. And for some reason.. it works, and we are happy with where those classes stand(in some aspect).

So for the Tanks, this is what I suggest, and reasons why and how it can work.
[b]Damage Increase:[/b]
Increase the overall damage towards Tank Attacks, I’m talking major increase in damage. The Tank and the Melee DPS should in someway scale the same amount of damage, just in very different ways. A melee DPS would be able to lay down A LOT of damage in a very Short prd of time(front loading), which is great for that class.. it’s the speed melee killer in battles. A tank however, should lay down major damage, but slowly. Each style should have a long 5-7 second cooldown/reuse timer. Each time that style is used on a target(and it’s not blocked/parried/evaded) the damage goes up.. constantly scaling higher and higher for each successful hit.
Not only will this make tanks something to fear, but in turn will also make tanks a class which the players will want to focus on, and take down first. For the longer the battle with a tank, the more and more damagaing he will become.

[b]Damage Types:[/b]
Being that Melee DPS is the master melee of a Single Target (just like how projectile DPS should be, see below in the range DPS section) his counter part the TANK should be the master of multi-targets during melee combat. Tanks should swing their huge weapon of mass destruction and hitting multi targets within melee Range. Cone of Effect(CoE) attack abilities should be apart of every tanks base skills. This could also be the means in which we really set apart the Great Weapon Tank and the Shield Tank. Great Weapons on a Tank should do CoE on all attacks. A huge damaging Arc to anyone within melee range and in the frontal arc of the tank. For shield/1hander, you have extra defence and still the high damage, but a much much smaller Arc, and much less damage towards CoE.

Tanks lack defense, even tho they have a huge shield, and massive amounts of armor. They are still as weak as a kitten. They seem to be Weak towards every class in the game. When the only thing they should really be weak to, is Tanks with a Great Weapon(harder to block 2 handers) and Caster DPS (should not be blockable, get RESIST!) However, Projectile DPS should be nearly always blocked by a shield tank if the attacker is attacking from the frontal Arc of the tank. Tanks should not have any means of ‘charge’ or snare reducing abilities, they should just move slow as slugs, and press towards their target, blocking any and all projectiles that are fired their way(minus from the rear)

[b]Group Support: Taunts, CC , Buffs/Debuffs
For a Class which is supposed to be able to control the combat, protect our groupmates, we really lack the options and means to do so. We need a means for PvE and RvR taunting to work just as well. Not actually forcing a RvR player to attack us, but to easily be able to taunt enough to make a difference in the effectivness of the player to cause him to respond to your actions towards him.
Every targeted(not the players effected by the CoE, but the player which is targeted for the direct attack) attack should be a taunt attack from a tank(5 sec with a 25% reduction).. stronger taunts or upgraded taunts would in turn increase to the 50% marker.

Tanks as a whole need the means to stop a single target dead in his tracks. Opening Snare attacks, Range Lob Choppa Snare(if hit in the back/side of the target), and what we really need “ENGAGE” it can be a 2 builder/grudge/rage whatever, we need ENGAGE. We need the means to stand toe to toe with a target, for a set amount of time, or we are not doing our job as a support rolling tank. The Tank class should be able to run up to a Melee DPS which is pounding on the healers face.. and force him into engagement. (I love it when mobs engage me, and all tanks need this base ability).

This is somewhat Simple, The class should have PBAE buffs, that last for about 2 mins or so.. but also act as a Debuff for any enemy that is within the PBAE radius. Buffs/debuffs can be for all types of Tank like enhancements. Strenght, wounds, toughness, weapon skill, armor, etc etc etc. When it’s used.. it increases the groups, and decreases the bad guys. Awesome.

Melee DPS really isn’t that bad, and a few tweaks here and there would bring forth a pretty nice class set. The class is designed to single target 1 player, and fight him with everything he has. The SINGLE TARGET KILLER! What I think would be the adjustments they need is increased ability to target and take down a caster DPS. They are all about the frontload, fast combat, but the major issue is, the closing the gap, along with the lack of defense makes closing that gap near impossible when you have all sorts of damages coming at you, from casters/projectiles/melee. So how we fix this? We know the basic role of Melee DPS, to target and kill Casters and Healers… soft targets, and maybe even the Projectile DPS, but that just added glory, not melee DPS primary target. He likes to leave projectiles to the TANKS that can block those arrows/bullets.

[b]Closing the Gap:[/b]
Of course, CHARGE. But charge needs to be readjusted and enhance/improved/balance to just add more flair to the ability. My views on charge seems as if it just doesn’t do enough. So how I’d like to tweak it is. When charge is activated, the Melee DPS Should have all forms of CC removed from him.. clean slate, and his movement speed and attack speed is greatly increased. And the player needs to drive his char towards his target. All fine and good, sort of like how things are normal, minus… during this time of “Charge” ALL magical attacks towards the Melee DPS are reduced, so damage is cut down to 50%, anything magical is halved. Minus Magical Snares, if it’s ‘casted’ it will remained immuned to the melee DPS. However, we can’t just have some Melee DPS running a mock without being challenged, without a means of balance or being stopped. So that’s why, during this time of “CHARGE” Melee Snares/CC and Projectile DPS snares still work on the Melee DPS(maybe at a reduced rate).

[b]Positional:[/b](just added)
While yes it would be great to have styles/attacks that focus directly on Side/Rear/knockdown positions. And of course the Melee DPS SHOULD have some set styles which do those very things. Globally, melee combat should follow some positional rules on it’s own. I’m talking Rear/Side Damage enhancements. Any class that engages in melee combat should be able to walk up behind a target, and deal EXTRA damage towards that target. This will encourage flanking! Rear Damage should be a 50% increase, side damage 25% increase.(for the Melee DPS class) all other classes can get 25% in the rear, 10% on the sides.

(players that play Melee DPS more can provide more input on the class, I haven’t put much depth into this class to really rework it)

There are many things about Range DPS which don’t sit well with me. It feels as if Range DPS is all bundled up into the same role sort of like how Tanks are. And it just shouldn’t be this way. Range DPS should be broken up into Magic, and Projectile.

Where as Magic DPS is generally strong vrs Tanks, and Projectile DPS is generally weak towards Tanks. Where as Magic DPS is generally weak vrs Melee DPS, and Projectile DPS is generally strong vrs Melee DPS. As it stands now, they are very strong towards both. I want their to be a fine balance between what classes are strong towards what classes. Things just seem/feel very bunched up and over simplified. When it really does need to be slightly more complex just for things to work.

This is another class which needs to be broken up into 2 types of combat. Magic DPS should be all about the AOE spells(damage/CC.. sort of like the how the TANK has Arc damage), and Projectile DPS should have high damaging single target attacks (singe target Snares, Single target attacks, (sort of like how Melee DPS is the master of single target in melee, as should the projectile be the master of single target in range).

[b]Attacks: Magic DPS Basic attack[/b]
These classes need a Valid Base attack, be it a simple auto casting low DPS magic missile that would be use the DPS values from the magic staff/skull/wand. But it should be a basic Range attack, so that a Caster can still perform when he is clearly out of juice. A Casters “melee” should be his basic magic missile auto attack, not his staff swing. That’s just silly.

I’m sure there are many other things that are desired with the classes, but those things come from a more indepth char/tactic/morale development system.

In the big Picture Caster are not to far out of line as where they should be. Engs on the other hand, should be more of a single target class, and less of a constant AOE killing machine.

Oh Healers, another Split Class archetype. The set role of a healer in WAR seem off. They are given means to defend themselves, buff themselves, heal themselves, and the means to go out there and slaughter enemy players at will. But their role still seems off, they are a support class, with the only real means of support they offer are Heals, and minor buffs.

[b]What happened to support?[/b]

The CORE of the healer classes should be, Primarily Healing.. keeping the group alive, and also Crowd Control, being able to Root/Snare/knockdown/knockback targets. While yes they can still do damage.. their damage should come from Those abilities.. Roots that deal damage, Snares that deal damage, knockdowns that deal damage. They should have no real Direct Damage abilities other then a lifetap or a Dot.

Melee Healer(Warrior Prist, and maybe Zealot(if readjusted to be more in lines with a melee close combat healer) These are classes that should focus more on chants/aura effects to keep the group alive, and also for CC, they should have little range when it comes to Healing (single targets), and most of their heals should be PBAE heals(healing group members with the full power of the heal, and non-group members at 50%). With those types of PBAE heals can also be where most of the damage from the Melee Healer comes from.

Well I’m a tad tired, and my mind is starting to shutdown so I’m just going to post, and if I think of more stuff to add, I will. Feel free to build on the ideas listed above.

You can also view my other threads in my profile for more indepth look into my solutions towards WAR.

The current Map/layout design seems off in how it brings 2 different races to engage each other of equal level. The only Chapters that are seem to be paired properly against each other is Chapter 3 of the Dwarfs, and Chapter 3 of the Greenskins. And chapter 6/7 of Greenskin/Dwarf Every other chapter pairing per zone throws a much different level range against each other. Even if it’s only by 4 levels or so, it’s still enough that will cause players not to engage in RvR until they have reached the “top notch” level in their RvR Tier. But it goes more indepth then just the pairing placement.. it’s also the placement on the maps. That a player needs to travel across and besides a player of the enemy realm, and can only engage in combat in the “set RvR zone”. That just doesn’t sit well with me in WAR.

Above is how I think WAR should work. Each chapter is nearly directly across from the opposing realms chapter (chapter 1 vrs chapter 1, chapter 4 vrs chapter 4 etc etc). Each Tier Zone would act as 1 large/long plain of land. Divided into 5 main sections.

2 PvE Race Specfic Always SAFE PvE zones (players for the enemy realm can in no way ever enter these lands. They are 100% safe, the only entrance would be via Chapter Cities, and also heavily guarded boarder patrol. No Enemy players should ever be able to make it over the wall to grief anyone(killing player mobs etc etc), That zone is the WHITE zone. IT’s cut into 3 Chapters, and has many quest camps scattered within it.

The next 2 Zones(orange) would be the PvE/RvR Zone.. for players that want that extras risk, and be rewarded for it. Quest in these zones would come mainly from the QUEST camps. These quest camps are guarded by NPC’s and have NPC’s boss within it. It’s not a simple task to claim one of these quest camps, would need atleast 2 groups working togther. Quest camps are also scaled for the Chapter it rest within. So a group or 2 of chapter 1 players would be able to capture one of these Quest Camps. Each Race also automatically starts off with their own Quest Camps. You only really need to capture the enemy quest camps.
If your realms quest camp is captured, the other realm will have access to some of the quest within it, escort quest mostly and looting quest (raiding the village, or freeing prisoners). When your Realms Quest Camp is captured, Guards from your Realms Chapter City will start to rally troops outside the Chapter city, and once they reach a set amount of guards (15+1 boss, 3 rows of 5) they will begin to march out towards the Quest camp, and attempt to reclaim it. If they fail.. they will rally up again adding 5 more troops outside the chapter city, and march towards the quest game again.
Also in these Zones, you have many PvE quest, and a many RvR quest, the PvE quest would be just like any other PvE quest, in terms of challenge, and story, the only difference is you can be attacked by an enemy player. Of course the XP reward would be increased and possibly Renown. Don’t worry about those players that much, these Areas are also patrolled (via Roads) by guards. SO you can still run to your near by guards for help, and they will assist(but they will still be killable, nothing is god mode in these lands)
In these Areas you will also find the RvR PQ’s (see post RvR Revamped in sig). Ways to engage the players over a set objective with an RvR twist.

The 5th area in this zone is the constant RvR live area. NO NPCS, nothing but player vrs player, realm vrs realm combat over the main objectives placed within the land (see RvR revamped post for more details).

I belieave if the map/land layouts goes more along these lines, we might have a more fullfilly game that really bring the idea of WAR into our hearts.

I heard the phrased “There is no dancing In War”. Well, I need to ask, where is the war in WAR?

[b]EDIT: Added an Overlay option to get a stronger feeling how the map can still work with the land textures[/b]


  1. I still recall the first time I read this way back when on the Beta forum. I was very impressed by it but even then doubted that Mythic would be willing to do all the work it would require to implement it.

    Given what followed I again ponder how much better WAR might have been if they had paid more attention to some members of their community.